gun control

[Darwoth]

well seeing as the other thread about the patriot act is turning into another shit throwing contest about gun control i figured i would attempt to move it here so not to fuck up that thread (which i think is important because this "homeland security" crap is shti people need to pay attention to)

so, once again lets have aguments for and against.

i will post my own thoughts and facts after a sufficient number of idiots spew their regurgitated crap all over the thread for me to respond to.

if nobody does so i will assume you realize the fact your arguments for stripping the rights of americans holds no water to the informed and cant argue because you have no argument.

[Arri Skywolf]

Either that or they refuse to argue, but give me a few hours, as soon as I'm done with this raid I will oblige you. Oh, and as for this homeland defense bullshit, well, it is a Republican affair...

[Guznuk]

Originally posted by darwoth

so, once again lets have aguments for and against.


Time for Ghecko to post the dead horse pic!

[Noobe]

IM GOING TO BUY A MAC10 AND SHOOT ALL THE TERRORIST (EVERYONE I SEE) AT SCHOOL JUST LIKE CS TOLD ME

[Arri Skywolf]

Nm I give up, you win. You're right. We should all have the means at our disposal to kill anyone and everyone we want. I hope they make stinger missiles legal, or better yet, I hope they mass market thermo nuclear warheads.

[Darwoth]

as usual, revert to stupid sensationalism when you realize you cant win the argument just like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum when you wont let them have candy.

[Arri Skywolf]

Either that or I realized arguing with you accomplishes nothing and others have come to the same conclusion in previous threads in which you make the same arguments and post the same links to the same pro-gun websites.

[Darwoth]

yawn

if you had anything substantial to say youd have said it, you dont so you didnt.

[Arri Skywolf]

Ok little kid! I'm not going to argue with you about why I'm not going to argue with you, sorry.

[Darwoth]

so what your saying is that you post your mindless drivel in other threads but when it is openly challenged you have nothing to say because you know as well as anyone with a modicum of intelligence that your full of shit?

thanks for clarifying.

[Arri Skywolf]

You can use alot of big words that people have used on you previously yet you don't know the difference between "you're," and "your." Jackass. You're obviously the pinacle of intelligence.

Oh and yes, blah blah blah, repeat your same circle arguments. Claim victory and whatever makes you sleep at night, warmonger.

[Darwoth]

would it make you feel better if i instead used an arument more in line with your level of thinking and called you a "mean poo-poo head"?


anyway im done talking to you until you post something worth responding to (i wont hold my breath)

if anyone else cares to take part in gun control discussion please do, id like to have this be the last large gun control argument on this board if possible so that in the future when retards like arri start spewing his crap that he cant back up all ive got to do is point to this thread instead of bothering to type a reply.

[Arri Skywolf]

mmhmm

[Nexex]

I do admit that both sides of the argument are a bit...'radical'...arri for one hand wants to make alcohol, guns, and a few other things illegal. Darwoth on the otherhand seems like he hates the goverment with a passion. When these two heads colide, it turns into a fucking 6 page thread...both of u..no one is going to change each others opinion on there specific subjects. So please, do us all a favor...SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Exivate]

I think Dar knows the difference between your and you're, I often mispell that word due to lazyness and I know the difference.

As for gun control, I can't give you an argument Darwoth because I agree with most of what you have to say.

[Exivate]

I know I've changed my mind a lot on many different heated debates by reading or hearing others opinions.

[Gink]

Well i'm Canadian (yah yah) therefore I can't speak on the issue, but mainly because the issue, the topic of argument has been lost in all the flaming and name calling, arguments are about critacizing(sp) others views and ideas, not who or how they are as a person, which is what this has resulted in.

[Lovaelihn]

I have the right to bear arms.

I cannot 'bear' a nuclear warhead, but I can 'bear' a stinger missle.

It should be legal, as far as I can see.

Blah blah blah...

Let's re-post the Bill of Rights again.

[Lovaelihn]

Originally posted by Gink
Well i'm Canadian (yah yah) therefore I can't speak on the issue, but mainly because the issue, the topic of argument has been lost in all the flaming and name calling, arguments are about critacizing(sp) others views and ideas, not who or how they are as a person, which is what this has resulted in.

The basic rights we have set forth should be allowed to every human alive. It seems to be a good start for any culture to grow. So many become stagnant simply because the person(s) in power don't give people the right to talk in a circle that leads away from their beliefs. I think that our basic american rights pretty much establish at least a starting point to what should be ( in my opinion - ironically ) given to every 'citizen' of our planet.

We all should have a say in which direction our culture is moving.
I think giving the people the means in which to wage a 'civil war' if needed is a good thing.

I don't want to conform to Arri's version of morals and beliefs. I don't think he should have to conform to mine.

It's funny... the very people I argue with are the very same people I am sticking up for.

Darwoth may be a bit radical and 'in your face' for most people, but he poses good points - in the least. Arri- you tried to start quoting statistics, then when someone refuted your points, you dissolved to meaningless babble. Go ahead and state your point without giving up.

I don't mind listening to a different point of view, but at least give me some reason to think that way that is not laced with complete disregard to courtesy and fact.

[Lovaelihn]

Originally posted by Exivate
I know I've changed my mind a lot on many different heated debates by reading or hearing others opinions.

Good for you. I have also found plenty of arguments I never really thought of before. I made a post a while back about never wanting to own a gun, because the whole 'pen is mightier than the sword' point of view. Now, I am really leaning towards more of the 'just in case, we should be armed' kind of idea.

I won't go out and buy a gun, but it's made me think in a different light, and that is always a good thing.

[Gink]

One question, do you have to go through a gun course in order to own a firearm? or is it just the normal 72 hour background check and then heres your weapon?

[Lovaelihn]

As far as I've seen, it goes like this-

Hunting license = gun course + background check

Buying a firearm = background check

But I haven't bought a gun in a long time, so...

[Darwoth]

lovaehiln is correct for the most part, though some of the more anti liberty states have put more countermeasures in place to make it more difficult for americans to excercise their rights.

the reason most places dont have required gun courses is because its pretty straightforward, there are only 10 rules of basic safety when using a gun and every single gun manual except for some for imported chinese etc weapons have a few pages dedicated to them. accidental shooting are not over a lack of knowledge of gun safety its over disregard for them and you really cant avoid that with any amount of classes.

really only one rule applies and that is never point the muzzle of a gun at something you dont want to shoot.


to get a concealed weapons license youve got to take a 3 day or so training course because of all the legal ramifications which is good reasoning to me to take one (even though i dont think it should be required) because in most states for example if someone is stealing your car you cant shoot them and if you did youd be up on murder charges and a lot of people are not aware of those legal hassles and could potentially get into trouble.

[DArkfrost187]

*Yaarii hears voices outside as he starts to put his hands against the coffin door*

[Stoffer]

Arguments for and against.
I stated what i think about guns on the other thread, which was pretty negative. I think that for me, the only positive thing about guns, and the only reason for having one, is because of the symbol of freedom that it is. Making it leagal, is the absolute guarantee from your government that they trust in you as an individual. that they are betting that you can stay within the boundries of the law with such a powerfull tool.
Sadly, that trust has been abused. It is a FACT, that weapons and crime are linked, there is no doubt about it. It takes a moron to deny that its more effective to rob a bank with a colt carbine then a baseball bat. Why do we have guns? to protect ourselves from the guns we put on the street. Do you think the arms indoustry cares if a gunshop gets robbed?, hardly, that just means more people are shopping for protection.

[Arri Skywolf]

I started to list facts *no one really refuted them* I was also looking for more but it was getting boring and to the point to where I really didn't enjoy the argument anymore, so I stopped. I'm sure if I had every pro-gun and every gun & ammo website bookmarked, like I'll assume Darwoth does, then I could pull up facts pretty easily, but I don't.

The issue isn't that important to me.

I know they're not going to make guns completely illegal in my lifetime, and I know that they are probably going to put more restrictions on buying them, and nothing I say on this messageboard is going to change that.

Smarter men than me have argued the issue with other fairly intelligent people, and have come to the same conclusion in their minds (maybe not showing it in the fronts they put up while they're on Larry King, or whatnot). However, the difference is, they get paid to argue about it and I don't, so I won't.

Edit: Typo~

[Gink]

I think buying a firearm with out hunting license or prior owner ship should mean taking a 3 day course (even though its straight forward) on firearms, after the 3 day background check.

[Darwoth]

ok so far nobody has really said anything worth responding to, im hoping for some of those "facts" that get thrown about in every other political thread for me to reply to.

so far the only people responding are people from different countires who arent qualified to speak about american issues and arri, whose argument consists of saying how he wont argue because "he doesnt feel like it" and calling me darrapist over and over again to try and piss me off (which does work as i gurantee if you said that in front of me youd be eating out of a straw for the rest of your miserable life)

so im still waiting for the likes of bling, yaari, laroux etc to all chime in with some of their crap before wasting time composing a reply that most people still wont comprehend anyway.

though if nobody presents anything i will just go to the various antigun propaganda sites and pull their "facts" (lies) from there and dispell them when ever i get around to it.

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by darwoth
calling me darrapist over and over again to try and piss me off (which does work as i gurantee if you said that in front of me youd be eating out of a straw for the rest of your miserable life)


Haha, I win.

Thanks for that laugh, Darapist.

[Darwoth]

win what? you refuse to support your bullshit with anything other then temper tantrums and foot stomping.

:rolleyes:

anyway youve already proven yourself to be an idiot so i dont need to do it for you thus i will be ignoring you, arri child molestor.

[Arri Skywolf]

You do that, Darapist.

[bling]

Hey Darwoth buddy, didn't even read this crap, but seriously, Give it up ok? Just let it go

[Darwoth]

i had until people started turning the thread started by meter about the patriot act into a gun control thread, so since people wanted to debate gun control it seemed i started this one so as to avoid sidetracking from the topic of that one, only now nobody wants to come play that theyve been asked to back up their bullshit.

was kind of hoping this could be the end all of gun control debates on this board so in the future i could just link to this thread instead of repeating the same arguments againt the same rhetoric over and over again but since the first few pages thus far have been comprised of incoherent crap and excuses for not backing up various opinions it doesnt seem it is havign the effect i desired, oh well.

[bling]

ok just read some new posts, was away for a week lol and this thread stuck out.

Originally posted by darwoth

though if nobody presents anything i will just go to the various antigun propaganda sites and pull their "facts" (lies) from there and dispell them when ever i get around to it.

You seriously think anyone is going to argue with you when you say stuff like that? You're pro gun sites could also be called pro gun NRA corporate propoganda that use "lies" to support their claims. Its just a switched perspective. I've said it before, who wants to have a conversation with someone who is just that close minded anyway? And seriously you've got your whole life long beliefs rooted to this argument, so you going to defend it to the bone anyway. You of all people are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Darwoth]

*shrug* as i said the point of this thread was simply to consolidate all the shit slinging over gun control in one place for easy referance/participation instead of having it scattered over 10 different threads.

the would be gun grabbers simply realize they have no argument and dont want to try, this is no surprise, probably why you never see any anti gun message boards but yet there are thousands of pro gun message boards.

and if your going to link me to a gun lobby link me to the GOA, the NRA is a piece of shit organization that compromises away everyones rights to save their duckhunting shotguns.

and another note, no. the arguments presented on pro gun sites are backed up by statistics, real world examples and actual FACTS.

whereas the ones from anti gun sites are easily uncovered as being distorted or more often than not outright lies they are based soloely in emtoional sensationalism not reality and anyone who doesnt have their head in the sand or an alterior motive can easily see this whether they "like" guns or not.

[Arri Skywolf]

Darapist.

[Gink]

was kind of hoping this could be the end all of gun control debates on this board so in the future i could just link to this thread instead of repeating the same arguments againt the same rhetoric over and over again but since the first few pages thus far have been comprised of incoherent crap and excuses for not backing up various opinions it doesnt seem it is havign the effect i desired, oh well.

Yah, but you turned it into a shit storm by calling Arri, first a child, then a child molester. Which is completely without due need, it just shows you lack the ability to argue and have resulted to name calling and childish attempts to swing away from the conversation.

[Arri Skywolf]

We both did it, and I hold no guilt in doing so. Whether he does or not doesn't matter. Every argument he presents even if I was debating with him, is laced with insults because he thinks I'm a moron because of my opinion. I never once insulted him or anyone else because of their opinions untill AFTER I, myself, was insulted.

[Darwoth]

uh gink i didnt call anyone much of anything other than stupid until this 14 year old stated that i must be a rapist and murderer among numerous other attempted insults because i support the second ammendment (refer to the other 2 or 3 threads that lead to this one), after that every other post included the darapist comment which while i shouldnt get annoyed considering the source does tend to get old after seeing it for the 20th time so i returned the favor with the child molestor remark.

as for changing away from the conversation, the conversation never started despite the numerous attempts made by myself to get it going, i dont how you figure i am the one trying to dissuade from the comnversation, apparently you werent paying much attention to the thread though cant blame you considering its content thus far.


anyhow im done until someone wishes to argue, i wont hold my breath though as ive already defeated all of the anti freedom folks arguments in past threads hence the lack of their presence in this one.


nonetheless i will still write up my own reply later though, just not in a hurry seeing as there is no opposition.

[Arri Skywolf]

Faggots like you, Darapist, don't deserve freedom :P

[Gink]

i will post my own thoughts and facts after a sufficient number of idiots spew their regurgitated crap all over the thread for me to respond to.

if nobody does so i will assume you realize the fact your arguments for stripping the rights of americans holds no water to the informed and cant argue because you have no argument.


Whoa, you sure did try to get a good debate going! WOWZA!


THX

[Vasten]

Okay, the point was to consolidate a thread for anyone that wanted to argue...

About what?

The pro's and con's about owning guns?

Why or why they shouldn't be legalized?

btw.. this thread was turned into something really stupid..

[Darwoth]

yeah vasten, the thread about the patriot act that meter started began to degrade into yet another shit slinging contest over gun control when a few people started posting the regurgitated HCI propaganda that has been dispelled NUMEROUS times before on this board by several people (dont know why they began to bring up that with regards to the patriot act though...).

so i was hoping to start a thread where everyone could argue about the issue to keep it all in one thread so in the future all one would need to do is reference this thread when a gun control argument broke out.

though it seems nobody with an opposing viewpoint wants to (cant) back up anything theyve got to say, was waiting for a few people to post some things before i bothered but so far theres been nothing worth be wasting the time to compose a reply to.

i agree the thread has turned to shit.

[Vasten]

In that case..

Why do you think guns should be kept legalized?

[bling]

Originally posted by darwoth
(dont know why they began to bring up that with regards to the patriot act though...).



Kinda like you bringing up gun control on the topic "should drugs be legalized?" For someone who can not get enough of gun control debates, I'm surprised you would be hypocritical enough to accuse others of straying from the topic.

[Ghecko]

I got lil kiddies. I can't bust out the shotgun if we get a burglar cuz i could injure a family member thru a wall (drywall doesn't stop bullets).

So I went and got a black-belt in Shaolin Kungfu and keep a 5-iron next to the bed.

Fooooore !

[bling]

Originally posted by Ghecko

keep a 5-iron next to the bed.

Fooooore !

What you use in offhand?

[Mawwle]

One of the common arguments i keep seeing is "guns should be illegal because people cant handle them and tend to blow each other away when they get angry."


This is a huge falicy that has been spewed by the biased media for some time.

If this were the case then we should not allow police or military to carry weapons either. Why? Because they are people just like me, you , the baker, and the pharmacist down the street. A police officer is JUST as likely to lose his temper and shoot someone out of anger as a grocery store clerk is, because they are both human. Policeman and military men are not some "special breed" that have more control over their emotions....they are ordinary people. Therefore if your going to argue the reason for gun control is because people can not control their urges to kill people, they only way you can do it in a logical manner is to suggest that NOBODY be allowed to have a gun, including the military and police.

Now that i have shown how illogical that argument is, i will share a fact.

The very people you wish to "control" have NEVER commited a murder.

In over 200 years there has NEVER been a murder convicted by a person with a concealed carry permit. NEVER.
So it seems your argument that we cant control our urge to shoot someone that cuts us off on the freeway holds no water.

Mawwle

[Mawwle]

I liked this one.


If an attacker were advancing on you right NOW, which of the over 20,000 gun control laws currently on the books in this country would you rely on to save your life?


Mawwle

[Darwoth]

ghecko: id hate to see you get blown away by a would be robber or whatever, there are ways to make having a gun safe for in home use to avoid penetrating drywall.

for a pistol there is various "frangible ammo" that is designed to not penetrate walls as it breaks apart when it hits solid stuff but penetrated living tissue well enough to reach vitals, this SAFETY AMMO DESIGNED TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE FROM RICOCHETS used to be maufactured under the name "rhino" they made the best of this ammo in my opinion but the ANTI GUNNERS PASSED LAWS THAT BANNED the production of this LIFE SAVING SAFETY AMMO by calling it "exploding ammunition" (lol) and feeding off the hysteria.

glaser makes the best now days, get glaser blue for your situation not glaser silver.

or you could just put some really light birdshot loads in your shotgun, birdshot wont penetrate walls but it is just as deadly as buckshot at close (indoors) range

if your walls are extremly thin though even these wont stop penetration so in your kids rooms you may want to put some sheets of plywood this will succesfully stop any of the tuff i mentioned.

just saying what id do in your situation, if karate lessons and gold clubs work for you then thats your choice =P


vasten:

the reason i choose to excercie my rights to own weapons is pretty straughtforward.

in order they are...... (keep in mind depending on the situation #2 could easily replace #1, but at this current time the threat from reason #1 is larger than #2)


1> to protect myself and loved ones from criminals and other potentially dangerous threats (where i used to live was not uncommon to have a rattlesnake fly out in front of you or to run into a pissed off black bear)

i prefer to have my glock to keep myself safe from dangerous situations rather then a cellphone and can of mace (which you cant even own mace in half the anti gun places anyway lol) and im not willing to bet my life on my ability to slug it out with people who could be armed, or in multiples or on drugs or whatever situation could arrise.


2> to protect myself, loved ones, and future generations of americans RIGHTS from a tyrannical regime should one arise. which, by the way is the original purpose of the 2nd ammendment.

the second ammendment is the one right that ensures the existence of all the others, without it wed be in no better shape than the various communist countries whose people have NO rights.



3> as a VERY distant third i simply like to shoot, its relaxing for me to sit back with a nice cigar on a fall morning flopping cans around with a .22, or spend a day stalking deer trails and finally nail one a few hundred yards out, or to crank off a 75 round drum from an AK in a deafening blast of noise.

those things i find enjoyable, some might not but i do.

[Mawwle]

"And that the said constitution be never construed to authorize congress...to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..."

- Samuel Adams, delegate, First and Second Continental Congresses

[bling]

Dunno what a concealed carry permit is, but if you are even suggesting a homeowner with a licensed gun has never shot and killed anyone you are so full of shit it amazes me.

[Mawwle]

Only the police are trained enough and
responsible enough to carry guns

If this statement is true, then how does one explain the following statistics:

--Arrest rate of Washington DC police officers: 19 per 1000
--Arrest rate of New York City police officers: 3 per 1000
(source: "D.C. Police Paying for Hiring Binge", Washington Post 8/28/94 pg. A01.)

--Rate of revocation of Florida concealed handgun permit holders over an eight year period: 0.9 per 1000
(source: Memorandum by James T. Moore, Commissioner of Florida's Department of Law Enforcement, to office of the Governor, dated 3/15/95).

[Mawwle]

Professor John R. Lott, Jr. responds:

Millions of people currently hold concealed handgun permits, and some states have issued them for as long as 60 years. Yet, only one permit holder has ever been arrested for using a concealed handgun after a traffic accident and that case was ruled as self-defense.

[Mawwle]

Originally posted by bling
Dunno what a concealed carry permit is, but if you are even suggesting a homeowner with a licensed gun has never shot and killed anyone you are so full of shit it amazes me.

Guns aren't licensed...gun owners however must get a license ONLY if they wish to carry their weapon concealed in public. This group of Millions of people have NEVER been convicted of murder.

So instead of calling me a liar, how about showing me ONE, just ONE case that proves this statement untrue.

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by Mawwle
One of the common arguments i keep seeing is "guns should be illegal because people cant handle them and tend to blow each other away when they get angry."


This is a huge falicy that has been spewed by the biased media for some time.

If this were the case then we should not allow police or military to carry weapons either. Why? Because they are people just like me, you , Mawwle

Maybe because these people, these HIGHLY trained professionals are just that.. HIGHLY trained. They are also quite extensively psycho-analyzed before being handed their gun. Instead of Joe Iwannakillsomebody who gets his gun 3 days after he applies for it, just because he hasn't commited any violent crimes before. Guess what? Every criminal starts out with a clean record before they become criminals.

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2000, 533,470 victims of serious violent crimes (rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault) stated that they faced an offender with a firearm

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders in 2000 were committed with firearms.

The number of gunshot wounds from assaults treated in hospital emergency departments fell from 64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39% decline.

^^-- During that time period, a democrat was in office and many gun control bills were signed into law.

The above facts came straight from the U.S. Department of Justice: Bureau of Justice statistics website.

~

[bling]

Originally posted by Mawwle


Guns aren't licensed...gun owners however must get a license ONLY if they wish to carry their weapon concealed in public. This group of Millions of people have NEVER been convicted of murder.

So instead of calling me a liar, how about showing me ONE, just ONE case that proves this statement untrue.

This is such a non issue it isn't even funny. I just used the I'm feeling lucky search and the first thing that popped up fit the bill.



This August 10, 2000, Dallas morning news article reports, " Since Texas' concealed-handgun law became effective four years ago, permit holders have been arrested on 3,370 charges ranging from drunken driving to murder, a group that advocates stricter gun laws says in a new report. That statistic, says the Washington-based Violence Policy Center, contradicts the pledge by proponents of the law that only the most law-abiding of citizens would be permitted to carry concealed weapons. "The NRA promised all of us that concealed-carry license holders were the cream of the crop of gun owners, so we decided to take a look at how this law actually operated," Violence Policy Center director Josh Sugarmann said Wednesday at a Washington news conference. "What we found was this: Concealed-carry license holders weren't stopping crimes, they were committing crimes - thousands of crimes." Gun-rights advocates countered with statistics suggesting concealed-handgun permit holders commit serious crimes at lower rates than the average citizen. As of July, 212,969 Texans held concealed-handgun permits, according to figures from the state Department of Public Safety. "What we have said from the beginning is absolutely true: The people who have a license to carry are by far the people that you want to meet walking down the street," said state Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was asked by the National Rifle Association to comment on the policy center's report. "Somebody with a concealed-carry license is eight times less likely to be arrested for a violent crime than the general population of Texas age 21 or older." An NRA member, Mrs. Hupp has been a vocal gun-rights advocate since 1991, when a gunman entered a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen and killed 23 people, including her parents. The Violence Policy Center report marks the third time that the group has examined the concealed-handgun law in Texas, which requires more stringent reporting of permit holders' arrests than any other state. Between January 1996 and this April, concealed-handgun permit holders were arrested on 3,370 charges, the group said. That figure includes 23 arrests for murder or attempted murder; 527 assault arrests; 227 drug-related offenses; and 207 theft, burglary, larcency or robbery arrests. The group said its examination of Texas Department of Public Safety data found that concealed-handgun holders were charged with weapon-related offenses at a rate 66 percent higher than the general population, with 873 weapon-related arrests during the period surveyed. But Mrs. Hupp and other gun-rights advocates said the weapons-related category is the only one where permit holders outpace the average citizen. Most of those offenses, they say, occur because the permit holder didn't fully conceal the weapon or inadvertently walked into a place where such weapons are not permitted. Gun-control proponents "wouldn't accept anything but angels," said Sterling Burnett, author of a recent study that concluded concealed-carry permit holders are 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for a violent offense. "


Now I copied up the whole article, because I"m not going to do some bullshit selective job on you here. And I know you saying the first quote was by gun ban advocates, but look at the counter by " Gun rights advoates"


"Gun-rights advocates countered with statistics suggesting concealed-handgun permit holders commit serious crimes at lower rates than the average citizen"

Doesnt sound like Zero to me.

[Arri Skywolf]

Go here. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm#typesrace)

As you will see, homicides committed by a black is only 5% higher than those committed by a white person.

Sex related murders were committed primarily by: whites.

GANG, PAY ATTENTION, GANG related murders were committed primarily by: WHITES

Murders that occurred in the workplace were primarily committed by: whites

The south shall rise again? Yeah.. by murdering people over sex, gang confrontations, and in the workplace.

Who is more likely to shoot multiple people? whites

[Mawwle]

There is a HUGE differance in "charged" and convicted.....i stated not ONE person with a conceled carry license has been "Convicted" of murder. In ever case they have been charged, the charges were either dropped, or they were found innocent by reason of self defense.

Also, even your artical shows that conceled carry permit holders are MUCH less likely to be involved in any violent crime to begin with.

Mawwle

[bling]

first off, no it doesnt prove that concealed carriers are much less likely to be involved in any crime. This is a sampling in Texas where the issue is just that, do concealed carriers actually stop crimes or are they just provoking them and on one side we hear yes and on the other no, so it is not conclusive in saying that yes concealed carriers stop crimes. However that is not the issue, so let me reiterate. EVEN THE PRO GUN ADVOCATES AREN"T SAYING NO CRIMES ARE COMMITED BY CONCEALED CARRIERS, THEY ARE JUST SAYING THAT LESS ARE COMMITTED. So let me once again point to the quote.

"Gun-rights advocates countered with statistics suggesting concealed-handgun permit holders commit serious crimes at lower rates than the average citizen"

And in the words of the gun advocates, "commit" was used, not "charged." So therefore, if you still wish to defend this, you would have to be agreeing with the gun advocates in saying that yes crimes are perpetrated by concealed carriers, however they just never go to jail for it. God this search took me 2 minutes to find, and 10 minutes to explain to you, I hardly think it would take another few minutes to search up a report saying "BILLY A CONCEALED CARRIER SHOT XXX AND WAS CONVICTED." But if you wish me to disprove you even more I will but until then keep grasping at straws.

[Darwoth]

arris "highly trained professional" comment made me blow mountain dew all over my keyboard (still laughing LOL).

i will respond to some of this in a bit waiting for a pizza to cook and going to watch a movie then ill respond.

[Mawwle]

Your not listening. I never said that conceled carry permit holders never committed a crime.

I said none has ever been convicted of murder. Period. YOu cant prove me wrong, because its true. (unless something recent has happened that i dont know about or somethat that was covered up has recently come to light. Anything is possible when dealing with humans)

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by Mawwle
Anything is possible when dealing with humans)

That is precisely why they shouldn't have guns.

[Mawwle]

Perhaps you missed it Arri, so i will post this again just for you.

(hmmm, arri......Yarri..........?????hmmmmm)

If an attacker were advancing on you right NOW, which of the over 20,000 gun control laws currently on the books in this country would you rely on to save your life?


Mawwle

[bling]

rofl he called arri yaarii, pwned haha. And god Mawwle you keep reiterating that one sentence like it actually benefits your argument instead of making you look even dumber. So what you're basically saying is "Oh oh yea? when an attacker is coming to kill you you wont have a gun to shoot him first WONT YOU BE SORRY THEN HAHA OMG LOLOLOL"

Please, take your ball and go home chump you're grasping at straws AGAIN.

[Arri Skywolf]

Multiple people that frequent this messageboard can confirm that I am not Yaarii (Whose name you misspelled). Also Yaarii is a strict proponent of drug legalization. He lives in Australia and is a frequent user of heroine, from what I understand.

Oh, and if an attacker was shooting at you from a distance or from close up, would you rather he had a gun or would you rather he didn't have a gun and therefore be infinitely less dangerous? Oh, you say you'd rather have a gun to shoot back at him? Chances are if you're confronted by someone who intends to do you or your family harm, they will have done it before you have a chance to defend yourself with your firearm, making any actions afterwards by you, with your firearm, revenge, instead of self defense. The south will rise again!

Is it easier to defend yourself from being stabbed, or beaten? Or is it easier to defend yourself from being shot at? Hm, let's think about this.

[bling]

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html

"Of the concealed carry licensees who have been arrested for a murder, several have been no-billed by grand juries that determined the killings were lawful. Gordon Hale III was the first Texas licensee to kill an assailant using his concealed firearm - and the first licensee arrested. Hale had been involved in a minor noninjury traffic accident that turned into an assault when the other driver, Kenny Tavai, punched Hale repeatedly in the face and then attempted to drag him out of his car through the window. Hale fired his weapon in response, killing Tavai. The Dallas district attorney's office charged Hale with murder for using what it considered excessive force in defending against Tavai. The grand jury believed that Hale justifiably feared for his life and refused to indict him.

Of the six licensees who were arrested for murder or nonnegligent manslaughter and brought to trial, twice as many (four) were found to have acted in self-defense as were found guilty of murder (two). "


So what this basically says that in a brief time period in Texas, testing out the new concealed carrying policy, 6 were arrested for murder. 4 were found to be using it in self defense and two were guilty of just, whats that? Plain ol' murder. Now I know why finding figures on how many people using concealed carrying licenses were convicted of murder, the pro gun articles that are written are just reluctant to talk about them as indicated in this article here with just a snipit one sentence saying that 2 people were found guilty of murder, in a brief time I might add in Texas. All these concealed carrying business are only passed in the south mostly with only 22 states total who passed this bullshit law. And once again, skip the first paragraph because I refuse to simply quote that one skimpy paragraph proving that 2 people were found guilty of murder in a brief time peroid under the concealed carrying business, so I quoted the paragraph prior to the fact. And guess what Mawwle, you can't argue with "found guilty of murder" written even in a a seriously pro gun article.

[Lovaelihn]

I'm not gonna type a long response, as you guys seem to be handling it just fine.. :p

However-

Oh, and if an attacker was shooting at you from a distance or from close up, would you rather he had a gun or would you rather he didn't have a gun and therefore be infinitely less dangerous?

How the hell can you possibly think that criminals are just going to stop using guns? Even if they are made completely illegal in the US ( which would be unconstitutional ), people will always find a way to get one through less legal ways. Hell.. right now I know of 2 places I could buy a .45 for $50 on the street.

If you make guns harder to get, you'll be taking them away from the honest people.


If you guys are just going to sit here and quote statistics ( which, IMO is pretty pointless... any stat can be skewed to match an argument ), then someone go look up the statistics on how much the murder rate went up because guns were made.

You prolly won't find any stats like that, but I think you get my point.

People will murder even if they don't have guns.
People will get guns even if they're illegal.

[Darwoth]

"Maybe because these people, these HIGHLY trained professionals are just that.. HIGHLY trained. They are also quite extensively psycho-analyzed before being handed their gun. Instead of Joe Iwannakillsomebody who gets his gun 3 days after he applies for it, just because he hasn't commited any violent crimes before. Guess what? Every criminal starts out with a clean record before they become criminals."

i simply can not stop laughing at this "highly trained professionals" remark, you do realize that almost ALL cops, federal agents and even military only shoot their weapons every fe months (6 for cops and feds) when they have to "requalify" which half of them fail and have to take it again later most of these "HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS" barely know how to operate their fucking weapons. there is not a single person i know who owns guns who is not BOTh safer AND more proficient with them than the VAST majority of these "highly trained professionals" (LOL) you speak of.

do you ever watch police footage shows? i make a point to tape and study every single one (that i come across) that involves a shooting instance, i cant tell you how many times ive seen cops (HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS I MEAN) spray off some 20 odd rounds at someone 4 feet in front of them and miss every single shot, the ghetto scum they are exchanging fire with is usually no better but they arent an average gun owner (who tend not to get into altercations with police to begin with)

if i wanted to dig through my files i could post dozens of links and news articles where someone was killed by a "HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONAL" doing most UNPROFESSIONAL things, such as the swat team member who was fucking off on his back porch in the middle of suburbia and loosed a 32 round burst from his mp5 into his neighbors house, or the feds that pulled over two teenagers mistaking them for bankrobbers when one of them blew the males face off with his m16 or any of LOTS of other examples.

sorry i feel much more comfortable around the average gunowner who is armed than one of your "HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS!"





"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2000, 533,470 victims of serious violent crimes (rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault) stated that they faced an offender with a firearm"

and if guns were illegal the guns would still have been used because, guess what the persons commiting these CRIMES are CRIMINALS. gun control laws DOES NOT EFFECT anybody but those who FOLLOW LAWS TO BEGIN WITH. i mean hell drugs and prositution are illegal so that must mean its not widespread throughout the country eh?

and lets humor you, lets pretend that all guns magically dissappeared from the face of the earth, uninventing the wheel so to speak. a knife is a just as effective, and NO you cant "run from a knife" like you stated in another thread because someone is not going to pull their blade out 10 yards away from you it will be at 3 feet which coincidentally most crimes involving a gun are commited at arms length already.



"The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders in 2000 were committed with firearms."

i dont dispute this, what i say is that if GUNS WERE ILLEGAL THAT THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE DOING THE MURDERING WOULD HAVE THEM ANYWAY.



"The number of gunshot wounds from assaults treated in hospital emergency departments fell from 64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39% decline.

^^-- During that time period, a democrat was in office and many gun control bills were signed into law."

yeah if you recall part of the medicaid programs so popular during that area created NEW medical departments that were trauma centers designed specifically to treat gunshot, stabbing and other imminently life threatening problems, so it makes quite a bit of sense that the emergency rooms would see a decline in this timeframe.

also of note this is the timeframe that the concealed weapons legislation got on its feet and swepot across the country state to state having a DRAMATIC reduction in crime.

the economy was on the rise (thanks largely to the republican house by the way not the piece of fecal material named bill clinton) hence easy to find a decent paying job in most parts of the country.

then there are hundreds of other small variables such as the HUGE cocaine shipments that were intercepted by the coast guard.



"The above facts came straight from the U.S. Department of Justice: Bureau of Justice statistics website."

maybe they did, i will touch on one example of how the government skews their statistics these past few years in a moment, the government sources are just as capable of skewing shit to their agenda as anyone, hell bill clinton was the one that started the whole "16 children a day die in gun violence crap", lets not forget that al gore invented the internet! right?

.............................


man thise board keeps cutting off my posts, meter pleas emake it longer =/

edit: fixed typo.

[Darwoth]

"Go here. <http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm>

As you will see, homicides committed by a black is only 5% higher than those committed by a white person.

Sex related murders were committed primarily by: whites.

GANG, PAY ATTENTION, GANG related murders were committed primarily by: WHITES

Murders that occurred in the workplace were primarily committed by: whites

The south shall rise again? Yeah.. by murdering people over sex, gang confrontations, and in the workplace.

Who is more likely to shoot multiple people? whites"


OH MAN i am SO glad you brought this up!

ok lets break it down for you.......

1> blacks make up 12% of the population, black males 6% even if your stats were accurate which their not (ill mention why in a moment) why is it that 6% of the population have a murder rate 5% higher than whites who make up 75% of the population?

2> AND HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART SO PAY ATTENTION.

the FBI along with US CENSUS and others have been FALSELY INFLATING WHITEYS CRIME STATS FOR YEARS, they use the underhanded back door tactic of including MEXICANS THE ETHNIC GROUP RESPONDIBLE FOR THE SECOND LARGEST AMOUNT OF CRIME IN THE COUNTRY as "whites" along with other groups such as arabs chinese etc, this FALSELY INFLATES ASTRONOMICALLY the "crime statistics" for white people.

people like yourself who are to damn dense to simply open their eyes and look at the prison population being VASTLY in the black and hispanic majoprity buy right into this crap without a second glance, here is a longwidned but very detailed article on hos the government has been doing this.

lol i mean give me a break, white gang violence? lol


.........................

The Frankie Gee Site, has been moved and I can't find it. They use his old site address below.

BLACK ON WHITE CRIME AMERICA
www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp <http://www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp>

Frankie Gee posted his website details on my guestbook. I went to his website and saw a site dedicated to the crimes committed against white Americans. Its a very good site:

members.tripod.com/~chino...forget.htm <http://members.tripod.com/~chinosfoot/aneverforget.htm>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here were some stunning statistics on his website which blew me away:-

Approximately 34 million acts were committed in the U.S. in 1992--about 94,000 crimes daily. This is a Justice Department estimate. We don't know the exact number, because many, if not most, crimes are not reported. We do know, however, that the national crime rate-crimes per capita-has tripled over the past 30 years, and at least 71 percent of all violent crimes involve some kind of economic loss.

Distorted Statistics Prior to 1986, Hispanics were classified as a distinct and separate racial group. Not anymore. The FBI and U.S. Census Bureau no longer distinguish between Hispanics (who are actually Spanish speaking Indians for the most part) and Whites; their crimes are lumped together in one ethnic pot.

The 22,354,059 Hispanics living in the U.S. do not exist, at least not in the ethnic sense when it comes to the FBI compiling criminal statistics for mainstream and news organizations. Included by the FBI as "WHITES" is not only Hispanics, but also West Asians, Jews, Middle Easterners, North Africans, Iranians, Iraquis, Libyans, Palestinians, and refugees from the former Soviet Union.

The question that immediately comes to mind is: "Why would the FBI and the U.S. Census Bureau classify persons of Hispanic origin as being white?" The answer might surprise you. The FBI and the U.S. Census Bureau, along with mainstream media purposely distort criminal statistics and conveniently classify Mexican-Americans as white because they do not want the American public to know the truth--that Blacks are responsible for committing the vast majority of crimes here in the United States.

For example, in 1993, there were 20,343 Americans murdered: Blacks, who compromise 12 percent of the U.S. population, committed 11,686 or a whopping 58 percent of those murders.

The black murder rate was 38.8 per 100,000. Based on their murder rate in 1986, Hispanics committed an estimated 2,242 murders in 1993. This is 10.7 per 100,000. 76 percent of the U.S. is White (European-American) and they committed only 29.5 percent of the murders.

On the other hand, Black and Hispanic minorities combined constitute 21 percent of the population, yet they committed a staggering 68.7 percent of the murders in the U.S. during 1993. This means, on a per capita basis, a Black person is 12.3 times as likely to commit murder as a White person. Since this information is not deemed "politically correct" and would perhaps offend the black segment of society, it is offset by falsely inflating the per capita basis for whites by backhandedly including Hispanics and other ethnic groups.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some more shocking statistics:

More than 1,600 Whites are murdered by Blacks each year.

Blacks murder Whites at 18 times the rate Whites murder Blacks.

About 1 million Whites were murdered, robbed, assaulted, or raped by Blacks in 1992.

In the last 30 years, 170 million violent and nonviolent crimes were committed by Blacks against Whites in the U.S.

Blacks under 18 are more than 12 times more likely to be arrested for murder than Whites the same age.

Some 90% of the victims of race crimes are Whites.

Blacks commit 7.5 times more violent interracial crimes than Whites, although they comprise only one-seventh of the White population.

On a per-capita basis, blacks commit 50 times more violent crimes than Whites.

Some 27 million nonviolent crimes were committed in the U.S. in 1992 alone. 31% of the robberies involved Black offenders and White victims; only 2% involved White offenders and Black victims.

1.3 million of the 6.6 million violent crimes committed in the U.S. each year are interracial.

Between 1964 and 1994, more than 45,000 people were killed in interracial murders in the U.S., compared to 58,000 Americans killed in Vietnam and 38,000 killed in Korea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above stats were collected by an Australian reporter, Neil Sheehan, who dug out half-concealed U.S. crime figures for an article in the Sydney Morning Herald (May 2, 1995).

The contents of his article, he commented, could not possibly be published or discussed in the U.S. mainstream media. One wonders how many Whites have to be killed by Blacks before the N.Y. Times and Dan Rather break the conspiratorial silence about the number of White casualties in the guerrilla war being waged against them by Blacks.

Paved With Good Intentions, a book by Jared Taylor, also studies crime statistics by race.

It must be stressed that Blacks make up only 12% of the population according to the 1990 U.S. census (and Black males about 6%), but they commit a vastly disproportionate number of violent crime.

Mr. Taylor reveals:

1) 58% of all arrests for weapons violations are Blacks.
2) 46% of all arrests for violent crimes are Blacks.
3) 73% of all "justified self-defense" killings are committed by Blacks.
4) 60.5% of all Blacks are armed with some type of weapon at all times.
5) 98% of all youths arrested for gun fights in Atlanta are Blacks.

In 1989, the FBI reported the following:

A) Blacks commit 8 times more assaults than Whites.
B) Blacks commit 9 times more rapes than Whites.
C) Blacks commit 14 times more murders than Whites.
D) Blacks commit 19 times more armed robberies.
E) Black neighborhoods are 35 times more violent than White neighborhoods.
F) There were 629,000 interracial attacks committed in 1985 (the last year the FBI "chose" to report this information). Some nine out of every ten were committed by Blacks against Whites.
G) Black males (6% of the population) make up 46% of the nation's prison population.

It can be seen that in only one category of crimes, driving under the influence, are Blacks actually underrepresented, and even this is only by one percent. Perhaps this statistic can best be explained by the fact that Blacks own fewer cars than do Whites percentage-wise.

It can further be seen that overall, Blacks are committing 2 1/2 times the amount of crimes percentage-wise as their population in America and as far as violent crimes are concerned, they are committing almost four times as much as their population percentage-wise.

As far as murders go, Blacks are committing almost five times as many as their population percentage-wise. Why isn't this ever reported on the news? Furthermore, it must be pointed out once again that many crimes go unsolved or are unreported, particularly those involving random acts. Therefore, the number of crimes that Blacks and Hispanics are committing may actually be much higher.

.............................

does reading this article piss anyone else off? i know it did for me when i first read it.

anyway i dont wish to get into racial discussion with all the guilt ridden (never could figure that out) apologists who may be lurking and want to tell me that things are this way because of white people, just posting to counter arris CRAP.


response to blings crap coming up once i read through it and compose a reply......

[bling]

ok first off, your first two links under the words black crime in America or something I clicked on and it said "Welcome to South American Politics"! Yes we know that South Africa is hugely racist against whites but that doesn't have to do with anything. And your third link is broken I copied and pasted and still no work~ And you're right, we should ship all those damn blacks to africa where they belong, those damn crime causing corrupt up to no good racists ~

[Darwoth]

NOTICE that your OWN link just compares blacks and "whites" where are all the other ethnic groups represented? they ARENT because they are LUMPED IN as "whites"

also from your own link

"Data Sources

The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program (UCR)"

thanks, drive through sir!

edit: THIS POST IS AN ADDITION TO MY ABOVE RESPONSE TO ARRI, (the message was to long to be included, board cuts off at 10k characters) some people (bling) thought it was to them, so i needed to eliminate the confusion.

[Darwoth]

just read the fucking article and try to be objective for once bling, is it THAT hard?

this is an article i dug from my files, the article lists verifiable names and sources if youd read it. the website africancrisis reports mainly about south africa but this article pertains the US so thats irrelevant.

[bling]

What links did I post regarding black and white info? That was Arri. All I was saying was that your links were either broken or irrelevant. Oh yes, and drive through k thx>? Try to be objective? I read your article, and what was I supposed to get out of it anyway besides that supposedly blacks are 9billion more times likely rape murder pillage cripple bite kick stomp and conquer small white defenseless villages?

[Darwoth]

the post was an addition to my response to arri, not you the board wouldnt allow me to add the rest onto my post (to big)

what you were supposed to get out of the article?

well earlier in the thread i made the comment that most crimes with guns are commited by inner city blacks when arri said something that i dont recall a few pages back and then he posted his "statistics" which i happened to know a bit about how those statistics are gathered, that was the reason for posting the article.

which is why i stated i did not wish to get into racial discussions so as to stay on topic regarding gun control.

the rest of your sensationalism and sarcasm i wont bother with.

[bling]

whatever, I'll go back to spear chucking until you post out your reply.

[Ksanth]

Originally posted by stofferr
Arguments for and against.
I stated what i think about guns on the other thread, which was pretty negative. I think that for me, the only positive thing about guns, and the only reason for having one, is because of the symbol of freedom that it is. Making it leagal, is the absolute guarantee from your government that they trust in you as an individual. that they are betting that you can stay within the boundries of the law with such a powerfull tool.
Sadly, that trust has been abused. It is a FACT, that weapons and crime are linked, there is no doubt about it. It takes a moron to deny that its more effective to rob a bank with a colt carbine then a baseball bat. Why do we have guns? to protect ourselves from the guns we put on the street. Do you think the arms indoustry cares if a gunshop gets robbed?, hardly, that just means more people are shopping for protection.

Whether they're legal or not, the people that you don't want to have guns will have guns, because they really aren't hard to make at all.

Do you really think someone that plans on killing somebody or knocking over a liquor store is actually going to buy and register a gun legit? Do you really think that just because all of the legit businesses stop selling guns, they'll disappear, or that only cops will have them? Do you really think that someone who doesn't give a shit about murder, rape and armed robbery laws is going to give a shit about gun laws? So very naive~

From the guns WE put on the street? Haha. We (law abiding citizens, legit businesses?) are not the only ones putting guns on the street >_<

[Ksanth]

Originally posted by Arri Skywolf


That is precisely why they shouldn't have guns.

And you think some writing on a document enforced by human cops will prevent guns from being continued to be made and sold to unscrupulous individuals? Grow up. This isn't EQ, you're not a GM, and you can't nerf gunpowder~

[Ksanth]

Originally posted by Arri Skywolf
Multiple people that frequent this messageboard can confirm that I am not Yaarii (Whose name you misspelled). Also Yaarii is a strict proponent of drug legalization. He lives in Australia and is a frequent user of heroine, from what I understand.

Oh, and if an attacker was shooting at you from a distance or from close up, would you rather he had a gun or would you rather he didn't have a gun and therefore be infinitely less dangerous? Oh, you say you'd rather have a gun to shoot back at him? Chances are if you're confronted by someone who intends to do you or your family harm, they will have done it before you have a chance to defend yourself with your firearm, making any actions afterwards by you, with your firearm, revenge, instead of self defense. The south will rise again!

Is it easier to defend yourself from being stabbed, or beaten? Or is it easier to defend yourself from being shot at? Hm, let's think about this.

How you're going to prevent anyone who's serious about killing from making/buying illegally? (For a high price, but the really dangerous people will afford it) Really, explain. Do you have some kind of magic crazy god powers? Or do you know anyone who does? Cause I'd like him to nerf anything harder than gelatin please, getting stabbed = sux0r =(

[Arri Skywolf]

Ksanth you made no points to respond to, so I won't. Except to make yourself look like an uncouth individual that is incapable of carrying on a debate without pulling shit out of his ass that is completely irrelevant.

People who own guns legitimately commit crimes also. None of you seem to face or realize this. Make guns illegal and they will be taken away from the people who obey the laws, right? Well just because someone takes the times to register their weapon, doesn't mean they aren't going to commit a crime. The point is, if someone has a gun, then the potential for them using it against someone, legally, or illegally, is always there. Alot of crimes involving guns are committed by people who, before that, were considered normal 'law-abiding' citizens. Well guess what. Every criminal started out as a normal law abiding citizen.

Darwoth, I didn't read your whole article yet. I'll get to responding to your posts tomorrow morning when i have more energy to look. Oh, and my link compared 'Black, white, and other.' Not just black and white. But let's not play the race card, it's irrelevant to the issue of gun control, unless you would like to take the stance that getting rid of all non-white christian land holders (which at the time the constitution was written, 'we the people' meant white, christian landholders.) would get rid of the majority of crime in this country. I'm sure that stance would bring more supporters of yours out of the woodwork.

The south lost the war. Maybe because of their bad math skills.

[Ksanth]

That they might not be able to buy a gun in the future. With some effort, reading, and a little mechanical skill, you can make one. Of course, after you start using it for killing, you just might get caught. But don't worry, the possession of a gun is the last thing you need to worry about, since they're going to be a little more worried about all those murders, whether you did it with a knife, a gun, a broken piece of glass, or a piece of rope! (NON-HEMP, SINCE ALL MURDERERS FOLLOW ALL OF THE LAWS K?) Not only that, just in case Arri gets gunpowder nerfed, you can make your own out of dead cats, manure, or maple syrup! AMAZING!

How? Just buy a few books or listen to someone who already has this knowledge. Guess Arri's going to have to get the gunsmithing trade skill removed too, nerfing gunpowder won't be enough =\

Oh, links for anyone who's naive enough to not have considered homemade guns ^^ http://www.righthook.com/fahome.html Ban the books too, right Arri? Good luck, and even if it did happen, people would still be able to teach other people how. It wouldn't just be forgotten =(

Since when are "murderous rages" a problem? Murderous rages are usually just a convenient excuse to get less jail time for something they premeditated anyway, it's less severe if it was a "crime of passion". Anyone who's actually serious (Basically all of them) will put the little bit of extra effort into getting a gun illegally.

[Ksanth]

If you're not more worried about the individuals who are obviously more dangerous and serious about killing and can obtain guns illegally, you need to get your priorities straight. How do you defend against them, DIAL 911?

Maybe if you were able to think and speak logically instead of quoting statistics, you would be able to argue instead of, well, pulling labels out of your ass. Uncouth individual?

I don't see anything in there but trying to change the subject so he doesn't have to argue with my superior reasoning, because it's so beyond him. You've got to be kidding me, I win that easy? =\ Anyone other than Arri who is obviously only listening to his own opinions disagree? gg -_-

"People who own guns legitimately commit crimes also. None of you seem to face or realize this. Make guns illegal and they will be taken away from the people who obey the laws, right? Well just because someone takes the times to register their weapon, doesn't mean they aren't going to commit a crime. The point is, if someone has a gun, then the potential for them using it against someone, legally, or illegally, is always there. Alot of crimes involving guns are committed by people who, before that, were considered normal 'law-abiding' citizens. Well guess what. Every criminal started out as a normal law abiding citizen. "

kk, you still haven't explained how you prevent the illegal guns yet, or how anyone is going to protect themselves from them. Why not? SCARED? OMG~

[Darwoth]

the charts on your link arri were black and white, "other" was only mentioned in a few of the tables on that particular page, the other 10 or so pages of stats were also black and white when race was mentioned, they also make no distinction what the "other" category makes up, dont know but if someone was calling me an "other" (read not important enough to detail my race) id be pissed off, of course they cant go into detail because then everyone would know they lumped just about every possible ethnic group they could under "white" to inflate ol whiteys crime stats!


and yes, for anyone who is afraid the tools of freedom may be done away with one day and cares to arm themselves with knowledge here are some more links to some informative books.
if nothing else many of them are interesting reading.

http://www.paladin-press.com

http://www.deltapress.com

http://www.loompanics.com/

and its no use arri, bling, etc. people like you have been trying to get these champions of the first ammendment closed for a long time to no avail. and the information is already out there so to late i suppose.

bling ill write a reply to you later, dont have much to say really since most of your posts were addressed to mawwle though ill chime in when i get around to it.

[IrateAss]

Ok Arri you smarty man. Thanks for answering everyones questions, only not. I just had to post to put you down in some way.
Its a known fact that one of the huge reasons why we won our independance was because the Americans = frontiersman which = nearly every man was VERY proficient with shooting their guns whereas the British army = not, mmkay? (History class is good) No guns = no liberty = none of your shitty ass posts. So go play with Rosie O'donnel, you gun nazi.

MyHopeIsU77: satan is attackin you
Cearid: NOO TELL HIM TO LEAVE ME ALONE

You better believe it

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by Ksanth
That they might not be able to buy a gun in the future. With some effort, reading, and a little mechanical skill, you can make one. Of course, after you start using it for killing, you just might get caught. But don't worry, the possession of a gun is the last thing you need to worry about, since they're going to be a little more worried about all those murders, whether you did it with a knife, a gun, a broken piece of glass, or a piece of rope! (NON-HEMP, SINCE ALL MURDERERS FOLLOW ALL OF THE LAWS K?) Not only that, just in case Arri gets gunpowder nerfed, you can make your own out of dead cats, manure, or maple syrup! AMAZING!

Yes, let's teach people how to build a gun. Aren't we smart!

Let's see. A knife: used to cut things, everyday items. Intention: Not to kill.

Shard of glass: Piece of trash. Intention: Not made for killing.

Piece of rope: Used to bind things together, etc. Intention: Not made for killing.

Gun: Specifically made for killing, maiming, or harming in some way.

How? Just buy a few books or listen to someone who already has this knowledge. Guess Arri's going to have to get the gunsmithing trade skill removed too, nerfing gunpowder won't be enough =\

Hi, this isn't Everquest. Do you talk like that in person? That's kind of sad if you do. I never said anything about keeping people from gunsmithing etc, but if that's what it takes to keep people from killing each other (and as a result of making guns illegal there would be no need for the skill anyways) then that's what it takes.

Oh, links for anyone who's naive enough to not have considered homemade guns ^^ http://www.righthook.com/fahome.html Ban the books too, right Arri? Good luck, and even if it did happen, people would still be able to teach other people how. It wouldn't just be forgotten =(

I never said it would be forgotten. I never said ban books either. I'm an avid reader. I'm sure someone would think of a homemade gun, and there's not much to stop it from being created. I'm sure though that if someone wanted to create a homemade gun, they would already know who they wanted to kill. I'm not saying that making guns illegal would be the end all of murders, but it would help significantly.

Since when are "murderous rages" a problem? Murderous rages are usually just a convenient excuse to get less jail time for something they premeditated anyway, it's less severe if it was a "crime of passion". Anyone who's actually serious (Basically all of them) will put the little bit of extra effort into getting a gun illegally.

If guns are made illegal they will stop being produced and the availability of them would lower. The guns found by police thereafter would be destroyed, thus lowering the availability of them more.

[Celoco]

Originally posted by Arri Skywolf

If guns are made illegal they will stop being produced and the availability of them would lower. The guns found by police thereafter would be destroyed, thus lowering the availability of them more.


More crime would be created from this since people would be getting their guns from overseas smuggling.

Anyway bottom line is that if someone wants to kill you its going to happen. Whether your throat gets razored or someone chokes you with a rope, or a few slugs in the chest, your dying.

If I had a choice out of those, Id take the slugs to the chest rather than be cut up with a knife.

But hey, who has to worry about ropes, knives, and clubs!? Just move to massachusetts where everything is illegal. (Except small arms, and carrier permits are rarely distrubuted to applicants)

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by Ksanth
If you're not more worried about the individuals who are obviously more dangerous and serious about killing and can obtain guns illegally, you need to get your priorities straight. How do you defend against them, DIAL 911?/quote]

I'm not saying I'm not worried about the individuals that feel the need to take peoples' lives. I'm saying that making it harder for them to do so would discourage some of them, if not atleast make it harder for them to do so. Defend against them? Ever heard of physical fighting? Is your fatass so lazy that you can't defend yourself excepting in the case where you have a firearm?

[quote]Maybe if you were able to think and speak logically instead of quoting statistics, you would be able to argue instead of, well, pulling labels out of your ass. Uncouth individual?

I pull out statistics to back up my thinking/logical reasoning. Just like Darwoth pulls out his statistics and articles, but I don't see you insulting him. Hm..

I don't see anything in there but trying to change the subject so he doesn't have to argue with my superior reasoning, because it's so beyond him. You've got to be kidding me, I win that easy? =\

Looks like you're the one trying to change the subject. Oh, and you're a self proclaimed winner, nothing more. Superior reasoning is beyond me? Laugh.

Anyone other than Arri who is obviously only listening to his own opinions disagree? gg -_-

It's that obvious, eh? They're my opinions, which means they're my beliefs. Is it that hard to understand? The concept of not conforming is above your head, I know. I'm sorry but I'm not going to explain it to you.

kk, you still haven't explained how you prevent the illegal guns yet, or how anyone is going to protect themselves from them. Why not? SCARED? OMG~

Effectively, once a law is made making guns illegal (I doubt this will ever happen, but I can't say I hope it doesn't) then all guns would be illegal and the mass manufacturing of them in the United States would cease. Guns would be confiscated from registered owners, and people caught with guns would recieve jail time ontop of them being taken from them.

As for protecting yourself, are you that weak that you need a gun and cannot protect yourself without having to use a weapon, or even a firearm? That's kind of sad. Tsk tsk.

Oh, and no, I am not nor would I EVER be afraid of you.

[Arri Skywolf]

Originally posted by darwoth
the charts on your link arri were black and white, "other" was only mentioned in a few of the tables on that particular page, the other 10 or so pages of stats were also black and white when race was mentioned, they also make no distinction what the "other" category makes up, dont know but if someone was calling me an "other" (read not important enough to detail my race) id be pissed off, of course they cant go into detail because then everyone would know they lumped just about every possible ethnic group they could under "white" to inflate ol whiteys crime stats!


and yes, for anyone who is afraid the tools of freedom may be done away with one day and cares to arm themselves with knowledge here are some more links to some informative books.
if nothing else many of them are interesting reading.

http://www.paladin-press.com

http://www.deltapress.com

http://www.loompanics.com/

and its no use arri, bling, etc. people like you have been trying to get these champions of the first ammendment closed for a long time to no avail. and the information is already out there so to late i suppose.

bling ill write a reply to you later, dont have much to say really since most of your posts were addressed to mawwle though ill chime in when i get around to it.

IS it so hard to believe that white people commit crimes also? Why? Are they only limited to wife beatings?

I didn't look at the other pages of that chart, the only one I saw was the first one and it seems pretty 'black, white, and other' to me. :P

As for arming yourself with knowledge, I agree with doing so. I don't have links to post, but I would reccommend checking out the Department of Justice's website. It's an interesting read.

Oh and I have no problems with the first amendment. I'm actually quite fond of it. If it wasn't for that specific amendment, we wouldn't be able to have this discussion in the first place. People have a right to say what they want, even if you, I or billy jim bob over there with the bazooka on his shoulder don't agree with it.

As for Irateass, well, I'm not going to dedicate a whole post to you, who have come here to back up Kassanth, but your name says it all.

[IrateAss]

I would just like to say Arri was owned by me, with a comeback like "your name says it all" makes it obvious he was owned.
Ok so I can say your name says it all, homosexual and a moron~
Arri Skywolf, roff3l go prance around in a field of pansies you pussy.

ez $$

[Ksanth]

I don't see anything but the same "guns are evil" and "YOU'RE AN ASS I'M A SMARTEY MAN" every post, in fact it's all pointless Darwoth bashing with "reasoning" you pulled out of your ass. keep trying Arri. ^^

The average american is a mcdonalds eating fatass who wants gunpowder nerfed so he can smother people with his enormous fat stores from playing EQ for 3 years before being shot 10-15 times and slowing down, little does he realize his fat stores aren't shit for defense and he needs weapons =\

Fists vs. guns is never fair anyway, unless you sneak up behind him~

[bling]

Originally posted by IrateAss
I would just like to say Arri was owned by me, with a comeback like "your name says it all" makes it obvious he was owned.
Ok so I can say your name says it all, homosexual and a moron~
Arri Skywolf, roff3l go prance around in a field of pansies you pussy.

ez $$

I have no fucking clue what you just said, but heres an idea. Powerlevel yourself up to 20 posts before you even start attempting to insult long time posters on this site Dipshit. Until then, find some other person to obsess about.

[Ksanth]

And here's someone who measures his worth in number of posts on DB's board. Does it get any more pathetic?

[bling]

not at all, I have what 145 or something? you have over 100 too. I've said it before, when people from outta nowhere have 4 or 5 posts, all of which are random insults, then yea that pisses me off. And by longtime poster I meant someone who has offered his opinion on a variety of subjects, thought provoking and the occasional flame, as opposed to just coming to a website talking shit

[bling]

btw are you two the same person or something? why are you both championing the irate.net stuff?

[IrateAss]

How fucking stupid can you be? Might wanna take a look at OUR EMAIL ADDRESSES ASSHOLE, ITS OUR SITE.
As for talking shit,
You queers make it so goddamn easy =/ And as for Gink, Ive been talking shit about him longer than youve been playing. Fag.

[bling]

so post under your in game name. And yes, I knew it was your site I did find it odd though that you both would put it in a similar fashion on your sig with your posts being pretty similar with homogoneous ideas.

[Eager]

You know, I go through all these posts and read them all. I digest them and I'm still amazed. There are some cases where I certainly agree with Arri -- though most of his posts are nonsensical, or stupid, such as the many darrapist comments-- and Bling. However, after going through these last few threads, I'm shocked that straight facts, no skewing, just FACTS are ignored.

Arri I know you believe what you're saying. However, you simply saying you won't debate it because it's not worth your time, then absolutely pouncing on a misspelling or something, then again saying it's not worth your time... well it doesn't appear very convincing. Just makes it look like a front because you lack an argument. I'm not going to get really deep in to this one, because it's evolved in to a point where I'm not nearly as familiar with Mawwle, Darwoth and the rest. I will simply say this, and of course it'll be ignored, but hey I gotta try.

Making guns illegal will be changing one of the vital parts of the constitution. It will only take them away from people who are by and large, law abiding citizens. Of course some of them lose their tempers and do illegal things, but not all criminals are doing illegal things 24/7 either. Illegal guns just makes the criminals that much more dangerous because they have no real opposition.

Insulting someone because they aren't the Terminator and can't punch out any criminal no matter how they're armed is idiotic. I don't know you Arri, but I guarantee if you're walking down the street with a daughter, or nephew or whatever, and I hold a gun in your face, you sure as hell won't punch me out. Assuming you're of decent size, one punch may just do me in, I'm pretty light. However, I have the gun, you the law abiding citizen doesn't. You, your nephew/whatever are screwed.

Drugs aren't designed to just kill people either, but they do. Ropes aren't designed to kill people, but they do. Hell, I could kill myself with vitamin c if I took enough. The fact is, guns aren't created with the intent to kill. Is Winchester's motto "weehaww, we kill better than colt! yeah! Smith and wesson couldn't kill a two year old girl! We can!" Hell no it isn't.

The reason Darwoth's mind is made up, is because he believes in the constitution. He bases his argument in fact. He is confronted with people who disagree with him because they don't like him, not because they actually have a pedestal to stand on.

[bling]

facts are ignored by me? funny I dont remember actually really debating gun control in this thread (something I did to spite Darwoth, which is probably why when he said he would post his ripping apart bling part 1 he didn't find anything) Well as I see how this thread went down.

Arri first did exacly what I did in stating his opinion on gun control in another thread when Darwoth initiated a challenge to him. And Arri reasonably figured that it wasn't worth it to go through round 2 with someone who's principle weapon is boring people to death and or engaging people in an argument that leaves both peoples fingers bloodied, bodies exhaused possibly unconscious and yet both opinions remain unaltered in the least bit. And a summary of the "argument" as I see it in this and the other thread went like this.

1 )Mawwle and Darwoth complain that there are no left wing anti gun message boards and media because the pro gun people "call them up and rip them apart with facts". I responded by showing Darwoth a messageboard with this same topic beind debated which was very anti gun and told him he could hop on there if he keeps complaining about how nobody presents him a good enough argument and that he always wins.

2) Second Darwoth posts a website which I admitted had some credible sources and research, on the trivial areas such as how X amount of kids are killed a day by handguns however on the important issues, the sources were almost all credited to some author whos book was entitled "how to properly defend your home with a gun" or something ridiculous like that. And even worse, on another key topic on the website it had clearly false facts that even a casual reader reading it for only 5 minutes was able to uncover. A math error like that might seem small, but when that website was dedicated to nitpicking anti gun "facts", it seems sort of hypcritical that they say something like 2 is 4 times greater than 20 and 8 is 24.5% greater than 21. Ok so I disproved that website. And on point

3) Mawwle posted a clearly false "fact" that supposedly of the million or so concealed gun carriers, not a single one has been convicted of murder which I again proved simply wrong and not just wrong, bordering on insane. Thats how I see it so far and in Conclusion = I was just suckered into writing a longass reply ;p

[Arri Skywolf]

Sigh, this is degrading worse than it already has. I have people who think crank calling old ladies is fun trying to insult me.

[IrateAss]

Maybe because youre such a flaming homosexual.

[Eager]

I do appreciate the honest reply there, Bling. I just got back from a trip, so I haven't read every message that's been posted in the last week or so. I realize that there is no --answer-- here, because mostly the only thing that's being debated is opinion. There are many facts present, but it seems it always drops down to insults, or challenging of someone's facts. ANYway..

On a separate note, and I swear I mean no insult by this, my grammar is far from perfect. Even if you don't break them down in to correct paragraphs, please separate some of your posts that are longer. So hard to read. :( I still read them, but it's a tad difficult. Thanks.

[Illusive]

the sources were almost all credited to some author whos book was entitled "how to properly defend your home with a gun" or something ridiculous like that

Wow, you're right... totally ridiculous. Defend your home! Who would want to do something so silly!

[Celoco]

The day I have to lay down my arms is the day I leave this country.

[Arri Skywolf]

Promise?

[bling]

Originally posted by Illusive


Wow, you're right... totally ridiculous. Defend your home! Who would want to do something so silly!

...........

my point was that his sources were pro gun. And as far as your wiseass comment no there is a huge difference between defending your home and defending your home with a gun.

[Lovaelihn]

We can all debate this until we are 90, but some very basic facts remain...


1 - One of our rights in this country is the right to bear arms. This will not be changed.

2 - Guns will be around. Doesn't matter if they are legal or not. Making them illegal would just take them out of the good guy's hands.

All the statistics can fly out the window as far as I am concerned.

[Arri Skywolf]

Last word.

[Celoco]

BLITZED


Last word no blitz!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Arri Skywolf]

Ok.